The world of "e-people" Su Dongpo has a high concentration of science and technology!

Text | "China Science News" reporter Wen Xinhong

Zeng Xiongsheng, a researcher at the Institute of History of Natural Sciences at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, has recently published a book about the Song Dynasty writer Su Shi, Su Shi's World of Knowledge: Naturalism and the Life of Song Dynasty Scholars. He told China Science News: "I was walking on the road of exploring ancient agricultural technology, but I often met Su Dongpo, and I was brought into his world of knowledge. ”

How did this rather romantic encounter happen and what did you encounter? Why Su Shi, and what is there about the writer Su Shi that is ignored by literary research and worthy of the attention of researchers in the history of science and technology? What role did Su Shi play in the people and technology of that era, and conversely, what kind of era and environment created the erudite Su Shi? To this end, "China Science News" interviewed Zeng Xiongsheng.

Detail of "The Elegant Collection of the West Garden". The Song Dynasty painter Li Gonglin realistically depicted the scene of his party with many literati and scholars, including Su Dongpo, Huang Tingjian, Mi Fu, Cai Xiang, Qin Guan and other celebrities, in the palace of Wang Xu, the commander of the horses.

China Science News: Could you please explain the title of the book, and what is the relationship between the world of knowledge, naturalism, and the life of the scholars of the Song Dynasty?

Zeng Xiongsheng: Historian Yu Yingshi once studied the political culture of Song Dynasty scholars under the title of "Zhu Xi's Historical World: A Study of the Political Culture of Song Dynasty Scholars", and made a comprehensive study of the cultural history and political history of the Song Dynasty, especially focusing on the interaction between the two. Therefore, when I was planning to write about Su Shi, I thought of the title of "Su Shi's World of Knowledge".

The "world of knowledge" emphasizes the connection between individual knowledge, which includes both temporal and spatial connections. Obviously, the world of knowledge is a vast world, and Su Shi's dabbling is particularly extensive, known as "Su Hai".

It is impossible to comprehensively sort out Su Shi's knowledge, and as the research object of the history of science and technology, we must try to limit the subject matter to the field of knowledge related to science and technology.

In ancient China, there was no concept of science and technology, and most of the knowledge related to it was summarized as "erudition", which was a common characteristic of Su Shi's generation of scholars. Erudite, Gewu and naturalist have roughly the same meaning. The original meaning is to recognize and understand all kinds of things.

Confucianism talked about "Gewu", the Song Dynasty writer Ouyang Xiu said "naturalism", and the Song Dynasty scholars Cheng Hao and Cheng Yi said that "Gewu is poor" is more deeply rooted in the hearts of the people. Erudition has become the pursuit of scholars, and learning has become a part of scholars' lives. Zhu Xi, a scholar of the Song Dynasty, also said: "Although the grass and trees are also reasonable. A grass and a tree, can't it be qualified? ”

Scholars are also ordinary people, they pay more attention to clothing, food, housing, transportation, firewood, rice, oil and salt while they are studying things, and they also seek food while seeking Taoism. This is especially prominent in Su Shi. Therefore, the life of scholars mentioned in this book includes both the spiritual life of scholars and the material life of scholars, and I am more concerned about the connection between these so-called "scholars' lives" and naturalist knowledge.

China Science News: Why did you choose Su Shi as the research object?

Zeng Xiongsheng: I have been following Su Shi for a long time, almost at the same time as my academic career. The initial interest in Su Shi was all about agricultural history, and in many cases by chance.

Jiangxi is my hometown, and when I was a graduate student, I noticed a change in Jiangxi rice varieties during the Song Dynasty. The changes in rice in Jiangxi were influenced by Champa rice, and Su Shi recorded the situation of Champa rice in Jiangxi earlier, and he left a poem that "the silkworms in the late Wu Kingdom broke their leaves at the beginning, and the Champa flea rice wanted to move the seedlings".

I have investigated and studied the rice cultivation techniques in the book "Tiangong Kaiwu" written by Song Yingxing, a native of Jiangxi in the Ming Dynasty, and mentioned the method of using high fields to send seedlings to deal with floods. Later, I found out that Su Shi had already mentioned this practice.

I also made some simple statistics on the areas where the plague occurred in the Song Dynasty, and found the difference between urban and rural areas where the epidemic occurred, and then found that Su Shi had a discussion on the epidemic in the metropolitan area and the constitution of urban residents, which supported my view to a certain extent.

These are fragmentary and accidental discoveries, and these contents become part of "Su Shi's World of Knowledge". To really do systematic research on Su Shi, I started from doing a project in the Institute of History of Natural Sciences of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

China Science News: This is your choice from a professional point of view, are there any other reasons?

Zeng Xiongsheng: During the Northern Song Dynasty, some important figures who made important achievements in science and technology were more or less directly or indirectly related to Su Shi. There are 307 characters included in the "Biography of Su Shijiao" compiled by Wu Xuetao and others.

In terms of the content of the history of science and technology alone, Shen Kuo is of course the protagonist of the great drama of the history of science and technology in the Song Dynasty, and Joseph Needham called it the coordinate of the history of science and technology in China. However, there has been a long history of research on Shen Kuo, and for me, it is difficult to do Shen Kuo's research with new ideas.

The book consists of eight chapters, two of which are related to Shen Kuo, and revolve around the relationship between Su and Shen, and one of them is a whole chapter on the biggest intersection between Su Shi and Shen Kuo in science - "Su Shen Good Prescription".

Interestingly, Su Shi also touched on the history, characters, astronomy, mathematics, literature, art, science, and technology involved in Shen Kuo's "Mengxi Writings". Su Shi not only provides personal experience for the relevant content, but also provides the other side of the facts, which helps to fully understand the state of scientific and technological knowledge in the Song Dynasty and its generation, dissemination and application.

Su Shi's travels even influenced the progress of science and technology in the Song Dynasty. For example, the highest achievement of astronomy and mechanics in the Song Dynasty represented the water transport instrument elephant platform, and the organizer of its development and invention, Su Song, was Su Shi's fellow sect, although they came from Fujian and Sichuan respectively, they not only recognized the same sect, but also maintained close ties. More importantly, at the critical time when Su Song had reached the retirement age, he took charge of the important position of water transport instrument elephant platform manufacturing, which was not unrelated to Su Shi's recommendation.

In Su Shi's knowledge world, Su Shi is the protagonist, but without the existence of Shen Kuo and other supporting roles, Su Shi's knowledge world will be much darker.

China Science Daily: Can you give an example of Su Shi's contribution in the field of science and technology?

Zeng Xiongsheng: Su Shi has made a lot of contributions in the field of science and technology. From the perspective of agronomy alone, although Su Shi did not have systematic agricultural works, and no one regarded them as a stream of farmers, this cannot hide Su Shi's contributions to agronomy. For example, there are no less than 10 texts that mention or quote Su Shi in Wang Zhen's "Book of Agriculture" in the Yuan Dynasty.

More than 10 years ago, I conducted research on the acquisition and dissemination of agricultural knowledge by scholars in the Song Dynasty with Su Shi as the center, and the research paper was published in the first issue of "Research on the History of Natural Sciences" in 2015. Taking Su Shi as the main line, this paper discusses the acquisition and dissemination of agricultural knowledge and the growth mechanism of agricultural knowledge from the aspects of birth, education, travel, and farming.

Earlier, in March and April 2005, my teachers, You Xiuling, a professor at Zhejiang University, and Li Genpan, a researcher at the Institute of Economics of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, conducted public exchanges and debates on the websites of the "China Economic History Forum" and the "Chinese Agricultural History and Culture" website on the "China Economic History Forum" and the "Chinese Agricultural History and Culture" website with the help of the newly emerging Internet.

As far as the topic of rice in the north that I am concerned about, Su Shi also played a role in it. For example, he promoted rice cultivation in Dingzhou, Hebei Province, and taught Yangge.

Not only that, Su Shi was also the creator, discoverer and disseminator of many scientific knowledge, for example, he discovered the seedling horse, a tool used for planting and pulling rice seedlings, for which he also wrote "Song of the Seedling Horse".

Although Su Shi emphasized his own experience in understanding nature, did not pay much attention to theory, nor did he pay attention to logical operations, and there were many scientific and technological aspects that he did not dabble in, it cannot be denied that he was far above ordinary people, and even compared with some ancient scientists.

What is even more commendable is Su Shi's scientific spirit of "changing things to entertain oneself", which is unique in traditional Chinese society that emphasizes the application of the world.

"China Science News": "300 lychees a day", Su Shi's love for lychees is well known, and a considerable amount of space is also spent in the book to tell the story of Su Shi and lychees. From a researcher's perspective, what do you see as different?

Zeng Xiongsheng: Su Shi and lychee are indeed worth talking about. His knowledge of lychee comes not only from his own cognition, but also from the records of works such as "Lychee Spectrum".

Although Su Shi may not have had the experience of eating fresh lychees before he came to Lingnan, he had eaten processed lychees through the gifts of his friends. It was only after arriving in Lingnan that he had intimate contact with Lychee, and had a new understanding of Lychee, and even changed his view of Lingnan.

Su Shi's understanding of lychees, compared with the "Book of Agriculture", although there is not much new knowledge, it is generally not bad. Some statements are closer to the truth than the "Book of Agriculture".

Of course, Su Shi's understanding of lychee is only at the sensory level. His poem "Lychee Sigh" rarely explores the natural attributes of lychees, but more reviews the tragic stories behind lychees and criticizes reality.

This humanistic tendency is in the same vein as the spirit of Confucianism, which disdains to become an old farmer and a nursery, and consciously refuses to be multi-functional and despicable. They are far less interested in science and technology than they are in social and historical issues.

These accomplished individuals focus more on the critique of society and human nature than on the exploration of nature, which is not only determined by the nature of literature and art, but also one of the reasons why traditional scientific knowledge cannot be further developed.

The history of understanding of lychee is a typical case of Chinese intellectual history, and the story of Su Shi and lychee can be seen as a microcosm of the creation and dissemination of traditional Chinese scientific and technological knowledge. More examples of this can be found in the book.

To sum up, Su Shi's involvement in the natural material world still has its limitations. He believes that "a gentleman can implicate things, but not pay attention to things." Because we do not pay attention to things, our understanding of things is superficial and even wrong. By dissecting Su Shi's case, we can get a glimpse of the leopard and discover the creation and dissemination of ancient scientific and technological knowledge.

China Science News: This set of books is nearly 800 pages in two volumes, covering a wide range of content. Starting from Su Shi, you examine the techniques of agriculture, mining and metallurgy, water conservancy, fishing and hunting, and food in the Song Dynasty, especially lychee, citrus, pine, bamboo, flowers, tea, and wine. As you said, he is really erudite and wide-ranging, so much so that when I read this book, it seems like writing a biography of Su Shi from a scientific point of view, or writing a history of science and technology in the Northern Song Dynasty.

Zeng Xiongsheng: It is very natural that a lot of the existing history of science has been written from the perspective of the scientific elite. I try to interpret the history of science and technology in the Song Dynasty from Su Shi's perspective.

This is because the progress of science and technology will sooner or later be reflected in the daily life of the public, so the shadow of science and technology can be seen from ordinary people. The Song Dynasty was a peak in the development of traditional Chinese science and technology, and had a wide and profound impact on many aspects of social life.

As the intellectual elite of that era, the progress of science will naturally be reflected in Su Shi, not to mention that Su Shi has unique contributions in some fields of science and technology, but he is too dazzling in the field of literature and art, covering his light in the field of science and technology.

This book is an attempt by me to study the history of science and technology in the Song Dynasty, it is neither a personal biography of Su Shi nor a history of science and technology in the Song Dynasty, and it is not appropriate to classify it as "Su Shi's biography" and "Northern Song Dynasty history of science and technology". But I hope it will be helpful to understand Su Shi and the history of science and technology in the Song Dynasty.

China Science News: This kind of human-centered research on the history of science and technology seems to be a very special way?

Zeng Xiongsheng: I wrote in this book, "The world of knowledge is the world of people." The focus on people is one aspect of my personal research on the history of science and technology.

In 2001, I proposed in my paper "On the "Man" in Traditional Chinese Agricultural Theory" published in the Journal of Research on the History of Natural Sciences that while discussing agricultural technology, we should always consider the factor of human beings, i.e., ancient Chinese agronomists.

It is precisely based on my understanding of human beings in scientific and technological activities that I came up with the idea of writing a general history of science and technology with people as the center, and shifted from a grand narrative of history to a personal narrative, so as to better combine the internal and external history of the history of science and avoid the phenomenon of "two skins".

If history is compared to a big play, and the grand narrative is the background and stage, then human activities are the main plot of this big play. Writing this book is an attempt at that idea.

In fact, there is no fixed way to study the history of science and technology. In ancient China, there was no such specialized science as it is now, and all knowledge related to science and technology existed in the daily life of the public. The task of our research is to go back to the historical scene and discover the creation, dissemination and specific application of technology-related knowledge in daily life.

When Su Shi encountered agriculture-related content in my life, I could naturally relate it to the knowledge I gained in the study and research of agricultural history, so as to discover Su Shi's place in this world of knowledge. As far as I am concerned, because I am walking on the road of exploring ancient Chinese agricultural science and technology, I often meet Su Dongpo, and I am brought into his world of knowledge.