Translator: Yi Ersan
Proofreader: Qin Tian
Source: Interview (February 7, 2022)
William Dafoe's face can do wonders. Depending on the angle and light, the 66-year-old actor can resemble an ancient Greek statue or a little elf guarding the bottom of a bridge. He has a career of more than 40 years, starting in New York's experimental theater scene, moving seamlessly between classic movie stars and the extremes of literary films.
He brought a sense of solemnity to superhero blockbusters such as Spider-Man: Homeless and Aquaman, as well as a dangerous atmosphere for author films such as David Lynch's Wild Heart and Ras von Trier's The Antichrist.
In Florida Paradise, he performed a kind-hearted hotel manager in a natural way, which was probably the best performance of his legendary career. Next, the four-time Oscar-nominated actor will travel to tenth-century Iceland in Nordics to interpret the Viking legend and work again with The Lighthouse director Robert Eggers.
Florida Paradise
Although this is his seventh film role in the past year and a half, Dafoe does not see it as a job, but as a service. We invited Dafoe to a conversation with his friend Mark Ruflo.
Mark Ruflow: Have you been doing well lately?
WILLIAM DAFOE: That's fine. How did you grow a beard?
Ruffro: Well, it didn't take much care.
DAFOE: I like to shave clean.
Ruffalo: (Laughs) I'm going to start interviewing you.
DAFOE: All right.
Ruffalo: You've made more than a hundred films so far, and what impresses me even more is that you've had long-standing relationships with a lot of directors, including Robert Eggers, Martin Scorsese, Paul Schrader, Wes Anderson, Abel Ferrara, Las von Trier, Julian Schnabel, Andrew Stanton, Oliver Stone, and Giarda Colagrand (Dafoe's wife), and I probably missed a lot of names. Why do you think that is?
DAFOE: There may be a number of reasons. For those directors I really like, I want to be a part of their work. Sometimes even for small roles, I'm willing to play. If I enjoy working with a director, it's easy to continue the relationship because we've built trust. I like to reach out to directors who have their own unique perspectives. If you want to draw the audience into an adventure, the spark with the director is important.
Ruffalo: That's great.
DAFOE: It's different with every director. Some of them know me very well in private, but some of them don't have personal relationships at all, but it's a pleasure to work with them. So there is no fixed formula. The only constant is that when I pick a project, the director is a very important factor.
Ruffalo: Absolutely. You worked on two films in a row with Robert Eggers.
Dafoe: I'm a big fan of his. My character in Nordic is more restrained than in Lighthouse. People always wonder what happens when a director who makes a small-budget film suddenly switches to big production, and sometimes they go up and down. Although I haven't seen the finished Nordic film yet, I'm very impressed with Eggers' consistency in working with the material.
The Nordics
Ruffalo: You showed me a video of you playing the role of the dummy Heimil, who was dancing, right?
DAFOE: Yeah, the character is a bit like a clown. I was learning from a choreographer, and we thought about a dance for a banquet scene in the film and performed it for Eggers, but his reaction was probably like, "Well, it's cool, but I don't think it's quite right." Do you understand this situation?
Ruffalo: I'm all too familiar with it. I once had a whole scene that was deleted because they thought it was "not quite right."
Dafoe: When I was making The Last Temptation of Christ, there was a big scene that needed to mobilize very intense emotions, so I also gave it my all. And as we were on the way, Martin came up to me and said, "Well, I don't think that's right."
The Last Temptation of Christ The Last Temptation of Christ
Ruffro: Oh my God.
DAFOE: It was like we were hit head-on and then we took a new shot.
Ruffalo: How many films have you made in a year and a half?
DAFOE: I haven't counted, but I do keep filming non-stop. About eight? Many of them are small supporting characters.
Ruffalo: Exactly.
DAFOE: For example, in "French Pie" with Wes, the role I played in it was a real little supporting role. I was particularly excited to work with the Greek newcomer director Vassilis Cassubis, his first feature film, and I was the only actor in the film, and we worked together for two and a half months.
At the beginning of the outbreak, fearing that Trump would order a border blockade, I ran to Italy, otherwise my wife and I might have been separated for a long time. A lot of people say to me, "It's unwise to do that, and it's only going to get worse in Italy." In fact, most of the citizens of Rome were calm and obedient, following the rules issued by the government. So I also enjoyed a relaxing time with my wife and didn't do anything.
The Franco-Rite
About July, I was busy again. The work that was shelved clashed with what was planned, and fortunately, my partners coordinated the schedule on the principle of mutual assistance so that I could divert time to complete each project. I generally don't do this because I don't want some advanced arrangements to affect the current state.
But in general, this year and a half of experience is still quite good, as for the results can only be seen in the after-effects. Now, I'm going to take a short vacation, but I'll be back to work soon. This is probably the norm for every actor, and I'm not immune. I'm even a little ashamed of it.
Ruffro: Why?
Dafoe: People always say, "Enjoy life," you know?
Ruffalo: You do live your own life.
Dafoe: My life and work are inseparable, and the two are mutually exclusive. This has always been the case, and my partners and I have maintained close relationships, so it will trigger a series of chain reactions.
Ruffalo: Why do you have this attitude of working? Speaking of which, we're still Wisconsin folks, do you think that's going to be a big factor?
DAFOE: Exactly. I recognize this attitude of work, it brings me a lot of satisfaction, which is probably inherited from my parents or deeply influenced by them, both of them are workaholics. Being busy with something gives people an energy, and perhaps the scariest thing is complacency or frustration with your work. When people are part of a work environment, they feel useful, as if they were the one telling the story at the campfire. You are providing a service.
Ruffalo: How do you understand the word service?
Dafoe: As a storyteller, you have an experience that, if it's clear and real enough, then the audience listens carefully and shares the experience with you. It is a privileged position. It reminds me of Pasolini, who made a beautiful documentary in the sixties, who traveled all over Italy and asked all sorts of people about sex. The film is not obscene at all, it is very candid and direct. The title should be "The Secret Encyclopedia", which can be seen on YouTube. What impressed me most was that many people didn't know what they thought about sex. They learn sexual concepts from society or from their relatives and friends around them. It's not just about sex, it's about people's attitudes towards life. They always learn from other people the experience of life.
The Secret Encyclopedia
Ruffalo: Exactly.
DAFOE: It's hard for people to recognize themselves. It takes a lot of training. Life is always busy, so there is very little space to come from the province. We are often forced to go around, to create an identity, and to become utilitarian.
Ruffalo: Another thing I'm curious about is that you're really broad and a lot of the characters are very different. I recently watched Tommaso.
Dafoe: It's basically an improvisational film.
Ruffalo: Well, the production of this film is breathtaking, and you're doing it great, and it's refreshing for us. At the same time, you also starred in films with very different styles such as "Nordics" and "Jade Face Love Demon".
DAFOE: I want to keep myself open. I'm in Tommaso because I'm not very close to director Abel Ferrara, we've made a lot of films together, so we're very spontaneous when we work together, there's no stereotypes or stereotypes, and we trust each other. In a way, we have very different personalities, but we have a lot in common in terms of film, and we know each other and understand each other. The film has a bit of an autobiographical twist to both of us.
"Tommaso"
Ruffalo: Interestingly, although you just mentioned that you need to rest, you are also getting up early in the morning to practice yoga, read, talk to the director, and have your wife and pets by your side.
DAFOE: I was with her.
Ruffalo: It's not an easy task.
Dafoe: Because she is also a workaholic, always busy with this and that, so I often need me to accommodate her time, and it is common to divide and merge. Occasionally we work together. All in all, we are both busy people, so it is not the so-called relationship between the main heart and the kenneth.
Ruffalo: Obviously not.
DAFOE: She's even busier than I am, working all the time. Such a relationship is also very good. She is proficient in many things, and she is curious and willing to try, and her introspection and self-improvement inspire me. Because every time you take on a new role, you have to learn a certain skill, or master a certain accent, or a certain behavior—such as how to make shoes, draw, sing, dance, and so on.
Ruffro: What do you think of ambition?
Dafoe: It's going to kill someone (laughs). Some of my old friends said in interviews, "William has always wanted to be a movie star." I almost wanted to strangle them! This is not true. But I've also noticed that it may have been what I did to give them this impression that I heard those words so often.
DAFOE: But the goal is always going to change. So you should keep an open mind and maintain a sense of humor about what happened. I think ambition is often associated with trampling on others in our society, and we are indoctrinated with this sense of competition.
Ruffalo: So you feel that ambition is the same as trampling.
DAFOE: Of course not. But the ambitious people I know will always turn away people thousands of miles away. You can feel their selfishness and want to stay away from them. They're too quick to make a quick buck — at least in my opinion. As for the actors I admire, there is no such urgency. They seem to succumb to something outside of them, and sometimes experienced veterans want to express themselves – to make themselves stand out, which makes them more and more desired, while accumulating more and more fame. But I'm not interested in that.
Ruffalo: That is to say, it is not the ambition that drives you to make more than a hundred films, so what keeps you loving your work and your desire to make movies.
Dafoe: I'm a social person who likes to deal with people and do things together. Maybe it's because I grew up in a big family. As a kid, if we needed a cleanup, we would get together — it might sound a little childish — and then someone would think of it as a sitcom and put it on a lot of fun, which we called The MacDafoe Family. "Diana is cleaning up the counter and she's doing awesome." Everything becomes a game.
Ruffalo: That sounds interesting.
Dafoe: That's what our family is.
Ruffalo: If you could, would you try to go from nine to five, doing those repetitive tasks day after day?
DAFOE: Maybe, because part of my personality is very accustomed to routine.
Ruffro: I remember one time when I was filming in Budapest, I lived downstairs from you and then every day at 4:30 a.m. I heard you get up early for yoga.
Dafoe: Sorry! Did you hear the beep as you made the move?
Ruffro: No, I heard some crashing sounds.
Dafoe: Probably from a jump, I'm not young enough to do every move lightly.
Ruffalo: But your performance is very young and relaxed. We've talked about working with the acting coach, about preparing for the group and things like that.
DAFOE: I've never worked with a coach and I'm surprised you've had that experience.
Ruffro: Mm-hmm.
Dafoe: What I'm used to is the kind of anti-traditional, anti-polished performance. It's not about professionalism, it's about releasing yourself. I love the rough and direct style, which is an aesthetic I've embraced since I came to New York from the beginning. This has always been in my body, to maintain a kind of innocence, not to be too diligent, otherwise —
Ruffalo: It's counterproductive.
DAFOE: Being diligent is sometimes not a good thing and can make you appear to be showing off yourself. But control is also necessary. Acting always strikes a balance between control and abandonment. Acting is a very subjective thing, so everyone will have their own opinion. An exaggerated, crazy performance for one person may be a sign of devotion for another. A natural, solid performance for one person may be a lazy, unbridled performance for another person. All in all, you need to prepare yourself to serve the director and serve the world in which you live.
Ruffalo: How did this magic happen?
Dafoe: The magic happens in people's minds, obviously it's all intentional, the director and the producer will have a holistic concept of what they want to express, and as an actor, you'll be more open to what you're dealing with. So in a way, I'm also very old-school, and I like the experience of theater being in a dark space with a group of actors and sharing and communicating with strangers offstage. This is important because this way of sharing stories is completely different from the movie-going experience you have when you're alone at home, where you can pause a movie at any time, make a phone call, have something to eat—
Ruffalo: Send a message.
Dafoe: Have a glass of wine. (Laughs) Anything you can do!
Ruffalo: Do you miss theater?
DAFOE: Absolutely! The last time I performed in a theater was about four years ago. After leaving The Wooster Group, where I've been on this theatrical group for 27 years, it's hard to be attracted to other theatrical projects. This team is always creating their own work, very close to life. Occasionally I get struck by interesting, highly original plays.
Ruffalo: Is there anything you want to do but haven't done yet?
DAFOE: This is a hypothetical question, and I don't know how to answer it.
Ruffalo: It's a really bad problem.
DAFOE: Regardless of the question, it's just that it's hard to give a good answer.
Ruffro: I'm also asked this question a lot, and I often choke on it.
DAFOE: I don't hate publicity, I'm willing to do something to get audiences into theaters. But interviews are always tough, and interviews with Interview magazine are always based on loose conversations, which is even harder. We have to talk about some idle questions like what to eat for dinner. Give humanity to the two actors in the spotlight.
Ruffro: Of all the people who have dinner with me —
DAFOE: Uh-oh! [Laughs]
Ruffalo: Actors are the most frequent. Your mind always seems to be peaceful and always calm. You've played a lot of villains, and a lot of people think, "Oh, isn't he a nasty ghost in private?" But it doesn't seem to be bothered by this at all, and I remember you saying something about how you deal with the world on a spiritual level.
DAFOE: I'm embarrassed that you said that. [Laughs]
Ruffalo: I don't know if that misinterprets what you mean, but it seems to me that you're still trying to exercise yourself. You're not the kind of person who says, him. I'm right here!" of people. You're not there.
DAFOE: I love what you said, "I'm not there." For I am both everywhere and without a trace. I think readers may be surprised by the issue you just mentioned about recognition, and maybe I'm more recognized abroad than in the U.S.
Ruffro: Why?
DAFOE: Maybe it has something to do with the movies I did. Films like Tommaso are rarely shown in theaters in the United States, but in some places they are treated the same as Hollywood blockbusters.