Forty years, from 1982 to the present, Cheng Yongxin has always been a mirror of Chinese literature. He launched the "Pioneer Special" written into the history of literature, and published such masterpieces as "Alive" and "Flocks of Wives and Concubines", and he and his writer friends enthusiastically discussed all aspects of novel writing.
In fact, Cheng Yongxin also writes novels. His "Snow Everywhere" is "an unquestionable masterpiece" in Ma Yuan's eyes, and his "Aunt in a Cheongsam" was described by Yu Hua as "concise and broad", but later wrote less and less, and gradually entered a state of suspension. Until the Spring Festival of 2020, in the sudden blank days, he began to write novels again.
In March this year, Cheng Yongxin's latest collection of novels, "If Only the First Sight", was published by Shanghai Literature and Art Publishing House. This book includes five novels with different themes and styles, including genre novels that integrate history and martial arts, double-line stories full of suspense, emotional outpouring of youth, and sentimental pursuit of the times... Four of them were new or rewritten by him during the pandemic, and one was a revised old work, Mahjong World.
Recently, after a "Mileage Literature Open Classroom" with college students, Cheng Yongxin was interviewed by the surging news reporter on the new portfolio. Because of the length of the interview, the interview is divided into two parts. In the first part, he talks about his state of restarting his novel after many years, his understanding of fiction, and his pursuit of art and the beauty of life. In the next part, he talks about his observation and reflection on the literary scene for forty years, the qualities he sees as a good literary editor, and how he views the current youth writing and the future of Chinese literature.
This is the previous article.
Cheng Yongxin (Unless otherwise specified, images are provided by the interviewee)
【Dialogue】
Strangely enough, stories often come to haunt you
The Paper: As a senior literary editor, you have always had a unique aesthetic and judgment of novels, but after many years of writing novels, will this process be more difficult?
Cheng Yongxin: I belong to the kind of person who is particularly lazy, of course, objectively it is indeed busy, there are endless manuscripts, professional editors in this life is to keep looking at things, after watching more, they have also developed a "high-handed master", it is easy to be dissatisfied when I write, I feel that this is not satisfied, that is not satisfied. The epidemic in 2020, it is boring at home, I just want to have such an opportunity, I will write it out first, and finally make up my mind to write out the stories in my heart. Because many scenes and plots have been thought about many times, this time it is still relatively smooth when it is really written, and it almost comes out like this.
The Paper: The first new one is "My Chiang Mai, My Teresa Teng". Remember how you felt when you first wrote this novel? Will you feel that the "feeling of writing a novel" is back?
Cheng Yongxin: After writing it, I was definitely quite excited. Teresa Teng's influence on our generation is too great, and this novel is written as an account for itself and an account for an era. I immediately sent it to some friends to see, and I also got some recognition, and I felt that the more late things that were unresolved in my heart should be expressed. In fact, this story of going to Chiang Mai to pursue Teresa Teresa has been brewing for a long time, and I went to Chiang Mai myself in 2014. Strangely enough, stories often come to haunt you. You'll think of those stories on all sorts of occasions, and they'll come to you.
The Paper: Can you elaborate on the unresolved and relatively late things?
Cheng Yongxin: In the era when Teresa Teng influenced us, we moved from relatively closed to the early stage of reform and opening up, economic activities began to be frequent, and life underwent earth-shaking changes. In such a change, Teresa's singing voice is an enlightenment for us. I wanted to present her music, her people, her legends, which touched on all sorts of issues, including ethics, emotions, and remembrance of the times, and so on.
The Paper: You said that this novel is to give yourself an explanation, to an era, and this explanation mainly points to the inner world and the spiritual world at that time?
Cheng Yongxin: Right. It seems to me that the novelist's highest task is to present the spiritual world of an age. We can compare with genre literature, which has its strengths, such as science fiction literature about the future, about the collision of technology and life, and traditional literature can retain the past, especially the past of our spiritual life. Why do we have literature? Literature actually cannot solve material problems, but the most fundamental pursuit of Chinese writers is to explore and present the spiritual world of people, including the relationship between people and others, people and self, people and nature, people and the world, and many other aspects, which is what literature has to face.
In March this year, Cheng Yongxin's latest collection of novels, "If Only the First Sight", was published by Shanghai Literature and Art Publishing House.
The Paper: The small labels of these novels are very careful, especially the revision of "Mahjong World", a major point is that the seven chapters are presented in the form of "east, south, west, north, middle, hair, and white", which should carry some of your ideas and pursuits for the structure of the novel. Was this also influenced by avant-garde literature of the 1980s?
Cheng Yongxin: In any case, the spirit of avant-garde literature still has a great influence on people like me, and I will feel that the perfect structure, architectural-like form is very important. In fact, for avant-garde literature, my personal understanding is even bigger. After the reform and opening up, our translators have introduced a large number of foreign literary works, and the contributions of these translators to Chinese literature cannot be overestimated. It is their introduction that allows Chinese writers to absorb a variety of nutrients, calcium deficiency calcium supplementation, selenium deficiency selenium supplementation, all to make up, the whole child's development. On this basis, we have avant-garde literature.
The emergence of avant-garde literature is a landmark event that marks the first time that Chinese writers have truly pondered why literary works need to be ideological and artistic. Ideologically, it is necessary to have a philosophical height, and from an artistic point of view, it is necessary to integrate metaphysical thinking about the relationship between literary works and people, the relationship with the world, and the relationship with the land of China. Why did the Chinese writers who wrote during that period have such a great influence later? Speaking of which, root-seeking literature may have forgotten, but avant-garde literature cannot be forgotten, and it has continued the exploration of literary forms. At that time, between 1985 and the 1990s, it was the period when the imagination and creativity of Chinese writers really exploded, and the most representative were Yu Hua, Su Tong, and Ge Fei. We used to chat all night, talking about novels day and night.
However, although avant-garde literature is avant-garde and avant-garde in its exploration of form, it also has problems, that is, it is not very grounded, and it is not so closely related to real life. Then there is a group of people who all write a type of novel, the same, and eventually they will be abandoned by everyone. Yu Hua immediately wrote "Alive" and returned to realism, of course, his realism is different from the realism we have read in the past. Later, Li Er, Bi Feiyu, Dong Xi, Lin Bai... This group of people came out, they portrayed human nature, presented people's spiritual life and spiritual world. But their writing has also absorbed the nutrition of avant-garde literature, or participated in avant-garde literature. In fact, their wave of people are all in the same vein.
The Paper: Do you think this vein has been passed down to us today?
Cheng Yongxin: Today, in fact, it is already "sneaking into the night with the wind, and the moisturizer is silent". I believe that when every writer writes, there are actually words that once shone there. If you think about Lindbergh's recent long story "North Stream", there are some elements of stream-of-consciousness novels, sometimes like a person's self-narrated dialogue, and her part about emotional interaction is also well written, the sense of form is very strong, and there are also avant-garde novels in it.
Harvest's 45th anniversary event. From left: Bi Feiyu, Wang Biao, Sun Ganlu, Cheng Yongxin, Su Tong, Yu Hua, Ma Yuan.
The pursuit of "beauty" is everywhere
The Paper: The Shape of the Wind in this book is actually a rewrite of the old work "Shadow of the Wind" from more than thirty years ago, does it mean that your understanding of the novel has undergone some changes?
Cheng Yongxin: Yes, in fact, the changes are still quite large, and rewriting this article is indeed based on my new understanding of the novel. When I first wrote "Shadow of the Wind" (in the 1980s), I was writing about a somewhat suspenseful atmosphere, thinking more about the more mysterious or metaphysical imagination, highlighting such a feeling. This is also related to the experimental nature of Chinese novels at that time, which not only inherited traditional Chinese classical novels, but also hoped to learn from the excellent works of the Western world. Now that I have rewritten this novel, I have joined the line of writer Du Yimin, who has fallen in love with the object of her care during the "Cultural Revolution", and the situation of life has increased, not exactly the original metaphysical pursuit. So Mirin and Du Yimin have two lines, two stories, combined into one, and I hope that the new novel as a whole can have a three-dimensional sense, a kind of architectural beauty.
The Paper: I feel that you have always pursued "beauty", architectural beauty, picture sense, musical rhythm... You'll put your own understanding of art into the novel.
Cheng Yongxin: Yes, this is my original starting point, whether I can do a good job for readers to judge.
Sculpture of the god of love in the Shanghai Writers Association. The Paper's reporter Luo Xin photographed
The Paper: Music also always appears in your novels, such as "If Only the First Sight", "Mahjong World", "My Chiang Mai, My Teresa Teresa", these are all there.
Cheng Yongxin: I especially like classical music. You will find that all the things we are not satisfied with literary works are compared to music, painting, architecture, these are the art categories. We used to be dissatisfied with some works of literature because they were too unarticial. Recently, there is a relatively popular drama "The World of Man", the director is good, the actors are good, the picture is good, these can sublimate the original work, sublimate the artistry of the work.
The Paper: What are your artistic preferences?
Cheng Yongxin: My interests in art are still relatively broad, music, painting, drama, and so on. Until the reform and opening up, especially after the restoration of the college entrance examination system, we walked into the university like entering heaven, and the artistic influence of drama, poetry, painting, music and other aspects can be said to be "evil supplements". At that time, I was very fascinated by Western drama, and after reading through the important representative works of the West, I felt that drama and poetry were the two most advanced categories in the literary style. Then there was music, and then the school would invite some people who had studied music from outside to do activities and give lectures, and the whole hall was always crowded, and the aisles were crowded. You'll see how fanatical people are about the "make-up lessons" of art. I think our love of art from the reform and opening up in the 1980s has deeply influenced our novel writing.
The Paper: What kind of art do you think is good art? We say that the post-blank frenzy may also bring to the other extreme, what understanding of art have you precipitated over the years?
Cheng Yongxin: I think good art must have some elements: for example, it can carry philosophical thinking, art and philosophy always have a very close relationship, and any form of art is guided and nourished by philosophy to have the possibility of moving forward; for example, it can express the noble quality of the human spiritual field. Why do we need art? It is hoped that through some ways, the noble qualities of human beings will be touched; and each art discipline also has its own special pursuits. For example, for literature, language is very important, it should be accurate, beautiful, fluent, and it should be unparalleled, that is, very personal, and it is really difficult to do this. Yu Hua said that literary language should be accurate, expressing an event, portraying a character, describing a detail, telling a scene, accuracy is indeed the first element. On the basis of accuracy, I also prefer the artistic text, that is, the same sentence, but can bring an atmosphere, an emotion to the whole scene.
In 2003, Cheng Yongxin and Cheng Baoyi were in Paris.
The Paper: What about painting?
The Paper: I am also interested in painting, and from my youth to the present, I have always paid great attention to the art of painting. Painting also expresses the painter's view of the world, his view of life. If I go to Paris, I will definitely go to see art exhibitions, exhibition halls, and art galleries, and I think painting has something in common with music and literature, such as people's aesthetic ability and ability to perceive beauty. Sometimes beauty is expressed through ugliness, which is modern art.
In fact, people's understanding of beauty has also been developing, and Mr. Li Zehou, who died last year, also said this in "The Course of Beauty", but he is more traditional, which is an exposition in the traditional sense. In my opinion, the development of beauty, or the process of aesthetics, is more complex, especially like Western artists who have a very close relationship with philosophy.
In this regard, after China's reform and opening up, a number of outstanding painters have also emerged, some painting figures, some exploring in form, and also have a very long process. But overall, I don't think we have as much a relationship with philosophy as we do in the West. It should be said that the painters of ancient China had a closer relationship with Taoist and Confucian philosophy, but the May Fourth Movement smashed all the traditional things, of course, some old things were broken, but also some things that should be preserved were thrown away. Our modern art, our view of the world, our view of life, and our view of the nature of man, they are not so closely related to philosophy, which is our weaker aspect.
The Paper: Who are the artists you admire?
Cheng Yongxin: Like Picasso in Spain, he has a "blue period", "a pink period"... In fact, they are very close to the exploration of human existence in European philosophy at that time. There were also Impressionist painters who influenced how we look at the real world. Impressionist paintings make light and shadow extremely beautiful, so that you can see a fluorescent and shining world, see the natural beauty in the spiritual world, so it is also related to philosophy. In fact, our gaze, our perception, these are all related to philosophy.
In 2003, Cheng Yongxin was at Zhu Dequn's house in Paris.
The Paper: You also like philosophy, right?
Cheng Yongxin: I have seen some of them before college, but after I went to college, I paid more attention to it. For example, Tronström's poetry is philosophy, and his metaphors and metaphors are very difficult to understand, but if you understand the philosophical guidance behind him and know his philosophical meaning, his poetry is very easy to understand. If you don't have that, you don't know what he's writing about. All modern art is actually under the guidance of philosophy and has a close relationship with philosophical trends.
The Paper: How would you understand everyday life? I feel like you have your own attitude towards dressing style on a daily basis.
Cheng Yongxin: In fact, in daily life, each of us will have an understanding of beauty, which is a state of life and an atmosphere of freedom. We talk about "freedom and uselessness" in Fudan, and I didn't quite understand this school motto before, but then I slowly understood that this is a very profound generalization. Our pursuit of freedom, our pursuit of beauty, really needs a breath, and this breath is particularly relevant to our daily lives.
When I was in college, I also had close contact with European students, and their understanding and thinking about life runs through all aspects of life, such as a French classmate who thinks that cooking is to be good. He admired Chinese Sichuan cuisine, saying that there are only two countries in the world that can make their dishes so beautiful and delicious, that is, China and France, which is the understanding of the French. The interest and atmosphere of life really permeate all aspects, depending on how you live and how to understand this matter. We say that we hope to chat with people who are closer to the three views, talk about art, you will play the chat to the fullest, will talk about all aspects of feelings and thinking. There is actually a lot of beauty in our daily life, we can choose to spend a very limited life in a variety of ways, and I do show respect and envy for some people who dress or have more tasteful habits.
The novel has the obligation to write about the "corners and corners" of human nature
The Paper: In this book, do you also have a state of "looking back"? The five novels have different themes and styles, and it is difficult to make a general summary, but I found that "If Only the First Sight", "The Shape of the Wind", "My Chiang Mai, My Teresa Teresa", and "Mahjong World" all seem to have memories of the old times and the exploration of our way.
Cheng Yongxin: You spoke very well. For this book, I am a little proud that the themes and styles of the five novels are completely different, but in the end, they still fall into the past that happened in our Chinese society, as Yu Hua said, in this collection of novels, "both we and them are written." In any case, the foothold of the novel is still in human nature and our spiritual life in China for decades.
The Paper: Speaking of human nature, several novels do reflect on different human natures, including the Buddhist words of greed, anger, and delusion. For example, the "queen" in "If only the first sight", you can say that she has a lot of desires, she is not satisfied with a lover, such a person is often painful and unbearable in real life, but she is treated and tolerated in the novel. I guess that also implies your understanding of the novel?
Cheng Yongxin: Right. You say that a person like "Queen", from an ethical point of view, she may be a woman with a heart, but from another point of view, she has pursued sincerity in her short life, and she really hopes that all ex-boyfriends can come to her funeral, and it is her natural personality that has a huge conflict with irresistible social ethical constraints.
In fact, our material life is better than before, but why is the divorce rate and breakup rate getting higher and higher? Why do more and more people believe in the "seven-year itch" proposed by Western philosophers and psychologists? I think the man who writes the novel is not a judge, he presents life, but he does not simply judge what kind of life is reasonable, what kind of life is despicable, he hopes that the reader can actively think about what love is behind the presentation. What is marriage? Is there any alienation and distortion of human nature behind the so-called "stability"? "If Only the First Sight" does not provide answers, but it can make us think about some of the "corners and corners" in emotional relationships, and the writers of novels also have the obligation and responsibility to write those "corners and corners".
You will find that some novels are superficial, but some novels dig out many aspects of human nature that are deep and complex. In this book, in addition to "Qingcheng Mountain" needs to use the shell of genre novels, the story of other novels such as "If Only the First Sight" is not what I pursue, what I pursue is how to highlight the personality of the characters in the novel. For example, people like "Queen", she has requirements for squeezing toothpaste, she has always pursued the quality of life and beautiful feelings, and I also hope to write "all aspects" of the fictional characters in detail.
In the first session of the "Mileage Literature Open Classroom", Cheng Yongxin exchanged "If Only the First Sight" with fudan and Huashi university creative writing students. The Paper's reporter Luo Xin photographed
The Paper: When it comes to novels that don't provide answers but provide thinking, in fact, there are still many readers who read novels with a mentality of "you have to tell me an answer" and "you have to help me solve a puzzle".
Cheng Yongxin: Novels do not have this responsibility and obligation, nor can they achieve this, but I think that thinking itself is valuable and meaningful to emotions and life. Good novels will ask questions, will give every life the right to show abundance, and will also make people have a more inclusive feeling. What's the point if people in society are all cookie-cutter? Is this happiness? Free? Human nature is so complex and varied, and the novel presents them to itself as a very beautiful thing.
The Paper: Do you feel that as you get older, your understanding of human nature is much broader and more inclusive than in the past?
Cheng Yongxin: That is too much change, more and more understanding of the depth and remoteness of human nature. To this day, I feel that if I don't present something, it's really not a task for the writer. Just like the story of "Queen", although it took place at the turn of the century, it is more necessary for us to face and think about it today.
The Paper: What do you think of time?
Cheng Yongxin: Time passes every moment, but it is so closely related to our daily life. All memories will be erased in time, all things that human beings have from ancient times to the present. You can say that a person's life is so long, but in fact it is very short, so its flow is an inevitable trend, you think of it, sometimes it will be a little sentimental, but it is irresistible.
Then I think time also has its place in art, and it can obtain a sense of eternity through the means of art, which is why art has charm. We try to take our understanding, nostalgia, or loss of time in our works, and through art we let it be carved there, let it stop there. So today we can still read works written in the past, or enjoy music born from the past, such as Mahler's symphony, which we can still hear today, and it acquires a certain sense of eternity, even though the composer has died.
Two days ago I listened to "Bolero", it was very simple, but when I listened to it, I was very excited, and when I was young, I liked to listen to this song the most. It's a very simple melody, and then it keeps pushing, it's constantly advancing, it's constantly advancing, it's changing, it's moving slowly, it's changing again. In fact, I think more of a dance song moving from slow to fast as a depiction of time. When you ask about time, it suddenly occurred to me that this piece is actually an interpretation of time from some perspective.
Cheng Yongxin's Literary History of One Man