Mr. Sun Jingzhang, Chief Designer of "Seagull" (1936-2023.12.22)
Mr. Sun Jingzhang, the former chief engineer of Shanghai Camera General Factory, passed away at 23:15 on December 22, 2023 at Tongren Hospital in Changning District, Shanghai, at the age of 87!
Sun Jingzhang, graduated from Zhejiang University with a major in optical instruments, Xi in the preparatory department of Shanghai Camera Factory in 1957, transferred back to Shanghai Camera Factory in 1963 from the Institute of Machinery and Equipment of the Research Institute of the Ministry of Light Industry in Beijing, experienced the research and testing of the main products of Shanghai Camera Factory since its establishment in 1958, and later became the chief engineer of Shanghai Camera General Factory. He retired in 1997.
From: NetEase Finance, Interview: Zhou Hong
Reporter: In your impression, what kind of level was the camera industry in our country in the 60s?
Sun Jingzhang: We should have started working on cameras in '58. The German Leica 3B model came out in 1936, and we started to do it in 58, more than 20 years later than them. But together we got to this level. This kind of camera was also just beginning to be engaged in by the Soviet Union. He couldn't produce it on his own, mainly after World War II, when the Soviet Union moved back German factories and engineers, and cameras came out around 1950.
The camera industry in the United States is very small, and I don't think it can't be done, maybe its focus is not on cameras, but on cars. More advanced than China is Japan, which already had cameras during World War II and several camera factories. Other than that, we're kind of advanced. At that time, Hong Kong and Taiwan were too far apart, and we started relatively quickly.
The fourth from the left is Sun Jingzhang, the chief engineer of the Shanghai Camera General Factory, and the third from the left is Qian Miaofa, the person in charge of Dongfeng Camera
Shanghai cannot lag behind Beijing and Tianjin
Reporter: What is the background of the country's attention to the camera industry?
Sun Jingzhang: I heard from the masters that at that time, Beijing and Tianjin had very simple camera factories, while Shanghai, as a big industrial city, could not produce cameras, and felt that it was too much to say that it was lagging behind others, so if you want to do it, you can do it better, and start a little higher, so you will build Leica. At the beginning, there was a company called Huiluo Company at the corner of Nanjing Road and Sichuan Road, and there was a small attic on the sixth floor, and a few metalworking masters were knocking and beating.
Reporter: In the early sixties, what was the output value of the camera factory?
Sun Jingzhang: In 63, the output value was not high. The three-year Great Leap Forward, the three-year difficult period, basically collapsed, no one wanted it, and if the output could not go up, it would be very difficult. Some people in the factory have returned to their hometowns, and some people have gone to other industries, such as batteries, and many people have run away, and the rest of them are designing a new camera, which is a type 4 camera, with two lenses. By '64 cameras began to be exported.
Reporter: Where are the exports to?
Sun Jingzhang: Started exporting to these regions in the Middle East. Because I remember very clearly, the export instructions were all designed at that time, but the import and export company asked us to reprint them. Later, it was changed to a seagull, which was also proposed by the import and export company and registered abroad, and second, the panda pattern printed on the Ming book could not be used. Because most of the people in the Middle East who follow Islam, they look at pandas like pigs, so no. It took us two or three months to change it all, and then it was exported.
Reporter: Why did you choose Seagull as your brand image?
Sun Jingzhang: It was first set by the import and export company. We don't have a choice. And I've heard that seagulls don't have a good reputation abroad, saying that seagulls are lazy birds that follow tankers and eat what falls from ships.
Reporter: What kind of people bought cameras at that time?
Sun Jingzhang: After our Type 4 star comes out, especially after the Type 4B star, it costs 80 yuan a plane, so it should be said that it is quite cheap. When our salary was not raised at all throughout the sixties and seventies, it was 65 yuan and 6 cents in the years after I graduated from college. But some families, who may have a larger labor force, can afford it.
Reporter: It's just a few months to get together.
Sun Jingzhang: Especially in Shanghai, I think the overall consumption level is still relatively high, and I can afford it. By the early 70s, I was still lining up all night to buy cameras. Some relatives and friends asked me to buy a camera, and I also went to the queue, wearing a big cotton jacket, and went to the queue at six or seven o'clock in the evening, and waited in line until tomorrow morning to get a ticket to buy it.
Mr. Sun Jingzhang was selected as one of the "180 People for the 180th Anniversary of the Birth of Photography" by the Daguerre Memorial Hall in France
Support for the "small third line"
Reporter: In the 60s, were there any other brands in China that competed with us?
Sun Jingzhang: Almost none, at the end of the 60s, we had to support all parts of the country. The Dandong Camera Factory was supported, and we gave him all the drawings of the Seagull 4 dual-lens reflex camera. Harbin Instrument Factory, we gave him all the drawings of the single-lens reflex camera. After Jiangxi Optical Instrument General Factory moved to Jiangxi in 69, we gave him all the drawings of Shanghai brand Seagull 205.
There are also many military optical instrument factories in Chongqing, and many factories of military industrial systems named after numbers, which are all given to him by our drawings. At that time, we didn't talk about intellectual property rights, it was all a game of chess, a game of chess for the whole country, and we would give you whatever you wanted through the formal procedures, so the drawings and technology were given to them.
But it still can't be done, and it can't be done by Shanghai Camera Factory. Why? They probably don't know a little bit about the camera. Second, many military optical instrument factories engage in military products, and military products are fatty meat, which are all funded by the state. So he can't compare with us in cost, and he can't compete with us.
Reporter: At that time, what was the background of the state asking the Shanghai Camera Factory to support camera factories all over the country? In particular, in 69 years, the technology, staff, and equipment of the Shanghai Camera Factory supported the construction of the Jiangxi Phoenix Camera Factory?
Sun Jingzhang: Support the "small third line". Chairman Mao said that he was not at ease, and he wanted a good gun and a good horse to support the third line. Originally, my lover also went to Jiangxi, but I said that I was not a good gun and a horse, and my family background was not good, so I used some connections to not go to Jiangxi.
(Note: The third-line construction refers to the large-scale construction of national defense, science and technology, industry, and transportation infrastructure facilities carried out by the People's Republic of China government in 13 provinces and autonomous regions in the central and western regions of China since 1964, with war preparedness as the guiding ideology.) It began against the backdrop of Sino-Soviet hostility and the U.S. offensive on China's southeast coast. The construction of the third line is another large-scale industrial relocation process in China's economic history. ）
Reporter: In the 60s, we also had a workshop for military cameras?
Sun Jingzhang: Yes, it's called the sixth workshop, and the sixth workshop was originally on the side of the British Consulate, at No. 30 on the Bund. Later, it was moved out and the third camera factory was established, specializing in the military.
Q: Have you ever participated in military research and development?
Sun Jingzhang: I can't participate, I'm from the landlord class, how can I participate?
Dongfeng 120 DSLR camera
8,000 yuan a "Dongfeng" camera
Reporter: Do you remember the first SLR?
Sun Jingzhang: 64 years, 65 years of design, 66 years of success. In the immediate aftermath of the Cultural Revolution, progress lagged far behind. After the design is completed, it needs molds, a camera is not simple, it requires hundreds of molds, and the SLR did not really start mass production until the 70s. At that time, we called it DF type, SLR. Later, the DF1 type was made, and some improvements were made.
Reporter: When you were designing the DF SLR camera, what was the level of other countries?
Sun Jingzhang: Japan's SLR is developing rapidly, and the DF series imitates the structure and shape of Minolta SR-7, but the 7 model has an automatic metering system, which we don't have in China, so we can only pull it off, which is equivalent to Minolta SR-2.
Reporter: When this machine was produced, what was the use of it at that time? Is there more military use?
Sun Jingzhang: I didn't think about it that way when I designed it, but I used it later. In the 69th year of the defense of Zhenbao Island, this camera was used. We specially designed a lens with a focal length of 500 mm, and the military required that two jeeps traveling together could be identified from a distance of three kilometers. Later we did it, not too much, but a lot of money.
We have a special situation, we think that what others can do, we will definitely be able to do, and what others can't do, we will also do. So in 69 we made the "East Wind".
Reporter: I heard that this is related to Jiang Q.
Sun Jingzhang: It has something to do with Jiang Q.
Reporter: Did you participate in the development at that time?
Sun Jingzhang: I participated. It's a long story. During the Cultural Revolution of '69, I couldn't get into the R&D team. Later, they couldn't do the shutter, and I had some expertise in the shutter, so I asked me to get a shutter, and I went, and after the shutter was done, more than 100 were produced.
Reporter: How much did "Dongfeng" sell for at that time?
Sun Jingzhang: At that time, there were 8,000 yuan.
Reporter: Basically, it belongs to the national gift treatment.
Sun Jingzhang: Jiang Q is also leaving, Chen Ada, Chen Ada, the leader of the Shanghai rebel team, is with Wang Hwen and them.
Hongqi 20 camera
Reporter: After that, the "red flag" was created?
Sun Jingzhang: When we were doing "Dongfeng", the second camera factory made red flags. Dongfeng is made in imitation of the Swedish SLR camera Hasselblad, the lens is made in Germany, and the shutter is also in Germany, and the German craftsmanship is very fine. This shutter can also be built in Germany, a large-diameter shutter with a maximum speed of 600 and 1 second, only Germany can do it, and there is a spring in it, we can't build it.
At that time, we thought of a lot of ways, including the Steel Research Institute, Shanghai Iron and Steel No. 5 Factory, and the Watch Materials Factory all worked together to tackle key problems, and finally the steel wire was pressed out, but the elasticity of our steel wire could not meet the requirements of Germany, and we could only relax a little. Our technological level is also not up to the German technological level, the German technological level shutter spring is very flat, ours has a little curvature, and finally made it.
At that time, Jiang Q required the shutter speed to reach a maximum of one thousandth of a second, and we had a hard time doing 500th of a second, let alone 1 thousandth. Later, I came up with a way, at the thousandth of a second, the aperture was reduced a little, and the shutter was originally so wide, so I opened it a little smaller, and it was reached all at once. But the aperture turned out to be 2.8, and I could only use 4, and Jiang Q didn't understand it, so I mixed it up.
Reporter: In the end, their needs were met. It should be said that making the east wind and the red flag takes up a lot of energy for the technicians.
Sun Jingzhang: A lot of energy.
Reporter: Will that delay the development of other cameras?
Sun Jingzhang: It didn't matter at that time, it was a political task, the most important and overriding task.
A classic old camera - Seagull 4B reflex camera
Missed opportunities for growth
Reporter: You have been in Seagull for so many years, what period of time do you think Seagull has developed best?
Sun Jingzhang: After the factory moved to Songjiang, the development was relatively rapid in the late 80s. In '83 and '84, the production reached 420,000 units, 420,000 Type 4 units, and 20,000 DF units, a total of less than 500,000 units. Later, because everyone had some differences on product development, it did not develop well.
Reporter: What kind of disagreement?
Sun Jingzhang: At the end of the 60s, I proposed to the factory director that we should develop small cameras, point-and-shoot cameras. I also saw this trend at that time from a foreign magazine. I often watch Japan's "Photo Industry" and find that the number of small cameras sold in Japan is much higher than that of SLRs, with SLRs accounting for more than 10 percent, small cameras accounting for 80 percent, and some large-format cameras accounting for 7%.
I remember very well that at the end of the 60s, we went to Minhang to dig stones and build air-raid shelters. During the break, I asked the factory manager to develop a small camera, but he didn't listen. He felt that the Type 4 had done a good job, and that the high-end SLR had already been designed, so he didn't think about developing a small camera for the time being. In fact, my suggestion was accepted by the second camera factory, and it was the 205 camera, which seems to have been selling well until 2000.
I was promoted to engineer in 80, deputy chief engineer in 82, and chief engineer in 87. I often talk about this problem with the factory director now, he said: "At that time, I was very embarrassed, I went to the Municipal Economic Commission, applied for the introduction of Minolta 300 SLR, and the Municipal Economic Commission took out the magazine of the Shanghai Science and Technology Information Institute, which contained an article by you, saying that your deputy chief engineer suggested the introduction of small cameras, how did you introduce SLR, I can't answer him." "But now, I feel like I was right.
Later, I also made a way to introduce a small camera from Minolta, but then I didn't have any money at all, and I didn't dare to borrow it.
Reporter: Is it that after the country opened, many imported cameras came in, which caused a certain impact on the seagulls? Or is there more problems with the seagulls themselves?
Sun Jingzhang: Actually, when the country first opened its door, the Xinhua News Agency didn't use our seagulls at all, and some newspapers didn't use them either. Xinhua News Agency is a state unit, and state units can apply for the purchase of foreign cameras. If you can't use a domestic camera, you can use a good foreign one.
Foreign reporters were surprised to see Chinese reporters using such good cameras: "You Chinese are very poor, but the cameras you use are better than ours, and we can't afford to use them." "Because they bought it with their own money, and we bought it from the state, so (the country just opened) does not affect the general public consumption at all.
Weak basic technology is a hard wound
Reporter: The general public can't afford to buy good imported cameras.
Sun Jingzhang: I can't afford it at all, except for the very rich. Why don't we have cameras in the end? There are two reasons why we can't do it. The first reason is the institutional problem of our state-owned enterprises.
The second is an objective reason, the camera is an application technology, which must be supported by basic technology. If there is no basic technical support, it will not develop. Electronic technology is not good, material technology is not good, machine tool technology is not good, nothing is good, then there is no way, we can only rely on imports, all from Japan. So you can bring one, you can bring two, but you can't bring in three or four, you can't bring everything.
Panorama of the former Shanghai Camera Factory (Photo: Ma Zhengkang)
Reporter: Is it that the level of basic technology research has not been improved?
Sun Jingzhang: I'll give you the simplest example, Minolta X300, this is very famous, and later it was Seagull DF300, which has two integrated circuits, large-scale integrated circuits, one is 48 pins and the other is 56 pins, and these two integrated circuits cost more than 200 yuan when we imported them at that time.
Then we spent 5 million localization, please Shanghai Institute of Metallurgy of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, there is a microelectronics technology branch for us to do, and finally made it, more than 100 yuan, but the price has dropped to more than 100 yuan, we can also go to Shenzhen to enter, Shenzhen he has a way, he has a pipeline, he comes in exactly the same as you, but no trademark, only 60 yuan.
If we make it by ourselves, 200 yuan, the cost will not come down, or we go to Shenzhen to buy parallel goods, he will definitely smuggle in. Smuggling is a crime, and we don't care about technology.
For example, when we had a cooperative institute, I was still in the mid-90s, and I hadn't retired yet, and I said that there were two directions for the development of cameras now. One is APS (Advanced Photographic System), which is a system developed by seven camera factories in Japan and Kodak a total of eight camera manufacturers, which makes the film a little smaller than the "135", which has many benefits, the camera can be smaller, the weight can be reduced, the resolution can also be achieved, and the film can also be saved, this is a system.
The second system is the digital camera, and I said that these two systems we will mobilize the national camera companies, and we will discuss which direction to go. As a result, everyone thought the same as us, denying APS, believing that there was no way out, and APS would probably be short-lived. In the future, it will definitely be digital, but we have zero digital technology at that time.
Reporter: How is the development of foreign digital cameras at this time?
Sun Jingzhang: It's not advanced, it just came out. After I retired in '96, I went to Kodak as a chief engineer. Kodak didn't do digital at that time, but also engaged in fool machines, and only after a few years of fooling machines did a few technicians and engineers get a few technicians and engineers to study digital. In fact, no matter how much research was done, what kind of method did Kodak take later? He bought back a Cosina in Japan and had this factory develop a digital camera for him. So Kodak's cameras are also produced in large quantities.
The technology of the United States is very good, but the use of technology is not comparable to that of the Japanese. I have also been in contact with the Americans, I have also been in contact with the Japanese, the Japanese are very serious, the Americans are grinning, and the Chinese are even more aggressive. Because the Chinese cannot be linked to their own interests, if they are hooked, I don't think they will be very aggressive.
When I retired, cameras in Taiwan were just developing, and now Taiwan is far ahead of us. At that time, in the early 60s, we went to the Bund to test shoot the Type 4 camera, and after we installed it, we had to test shoot, and we saw that people took the Halina camera in Hong Kong, and the shot was too rough to compare with us, and now the Hong Kong camera surpasses us.
Reporter: What was the situation in the factory when you left?
Sun Jingzhang: At that time, we were still passable, and we introduced Minolta X300. In the end, only the production technology and equipment of the fuselage part came in, and the lens was not introduced because there was no money. When we went to Japan in '87, we talked about this issue, and the Japanese thought that we would introduce the fuselage first, and then enter the lens, so they prepared a lot of lens materials and drawings for us to see, but in fact, we knew that we had no money and could not enter.
What about the lens? After we got the footage materials, we got them ourselves. When I brought in an engineer from Chongqing. He has been doing it for about 90 years, from 90 to 94 and 95, and these five lenses have sold very well, and then we have no zoom lenses in China, so these years are better. I left at the end of '96 and the beginning of '97.