Xu tired
Dong Qiang
Cold glaciers
Leslie
Theme: To talk about beauty is to talk about our lives
Time: 15:00, January 22, 2022
Location: SKP PENDEZ-VOUS
Guest: Xu Lei, contemporary artist
Dong Qiang, Head of the French Department of Peking University, Professor
Cold Glacier Editor-in-Chief and Artist of Aesthetic Magazine
Moderator: Zhang Lixian, writer, founder and editor-in-chief of "Reading Library"
Twenty years ago, the magazine called "Aesthetic Beauty" stopped in one series, but planted the seed of "talking about beauty is talking about our lives." Twenty years later, there is a need to continue the old thoughts, and there is also a need to talk about the new "beauty" - the artist Mr. Leng Glacier said, we want to "continue the fire"! On March 20, 2021, "Aesthetic Beauty" edited by Leng Glacier was released at the launch event of Nantong's reading base. A year later, on the afternoon of January 22, 2022, Leng Glacier and "Aesthetic Beauty" and a number of guests at RENDEZ-VOUS in Beijing SKP Mall once again began a dialogue on "beauty".
The "beauty" thing is the blind man touching the elephant, and everyone touches what he is
Zhang Lixian: It rarely snows in Beijing, so let's talk about beauty and life. Today, I especially want to make a definition of beauty with three "post-60s" teachers who have a deep education in addition to their own creations.
Teacher Leng, the name of the set of books you compiled is "Aesthetic Beauty", who gave you so much courage to name this book "Aesthetic Beauty"?
Cold Glacier: Not a beautiful lyrical name, it may not be able to come out. What you just said is beautiful, I thought about it for half a day, there are many answers to this question, I can't say it well. But my simplest idea is that what comes out of my heart is "beauty", and it must be said.
Xu Lei: The basic concept of this book is that the creator talks about some things -- not critics, but people who do the creation themselves, writers, artists, architects. Your own feelings, any of your experiences and perceptions, can be reflected in this article. Cold Glacier's books are all excellent, and this book is also beautiful. The text inside was collected by himself with his friends.
I read this book yesterday while wondering where its scale is. I found it a bit like the aesthetician Galté said that art freedom – you play freely. Everyone's perspective is indeed different, especially a creator, his personality, preferences, in fact, can not exist as a controversy. The creator is definitely more willful, so none of this can be used as his guidelines. But the "beauty" thing is the blind man touching the elephant, and everyone touches what he is.
Generally speaking, talking about what beauty is, until now, many people have not been able to fully convince me. All make sense, but they are all partial. As far as I'm concerned, I think there's an important thing about beauty, which is to be "accurate." Calvino preached that "accuracy" is a standard. In my opinion, the word "accurate" is a bit like the will of God in the whole of artistic creation. All the sense of balance of nature, such as the beauty of the spiral of a shell, is not something that man can create. I draw a picture, people say, "This picture is good", I think it is not me who painted it, it was made by God with my hand, I am a mortal, I can't do it so well. A lot of people say that artists are creators, god-like beings, and I don't think that's the case. Including some of the works I have seen in the past, all good works have the Hand of God in them. What does this mean? It shows that there are some things that cannot be said. So this is a very delicate thing, some people say that ugly is also another kind of beauty, and things around beauty are very complicated.
Zhang Lixian: The three of you are sitting here today, and you have one thing in common, all of you are the authors of the book "Aesthetic Beauty". The book "Aesthetic Beauty" brings together more than 70 people, that is, more than 70 people's customization of beauty, so to speak?
Xu Lei: My feeling when I watched "Aesthetic Beauty" yesterday is that some people are talking about beauty, some people are writing about the laws of beauty, and some people are writing in the clouds. I'm writing about perspective in China. I think there is a perspective at a 45-degree angle, and Chinese painting has had this pattern since the Eastern Han Dynasty, until now. Chinese's vision is like this, and the perspective of his painting space is 45 degrees. Why does Chinese painting have a sense of time? For example, painting "Qingming River Map" can be extended all the way, perspective is a thousand miles, unlike the Western perspective has a point, it goes parallel, never ending.
There are traces of changes in the concept of "beauty" in the West
Dong Qiang: The 45-degree angle that Xu Lei just mentioned reminds me of a book I edited before, called "The Beauty of Everyone", which is quite similar to "Aesthetic Beauty". I knew Xu Lei at that time, and I hadn't met his people, and I hadn't seen his articles. Cold glaciers are entirely in the poet's circle. So, the magazine itself is a crossover thing, with all kinds of people who are engaged in a wide variety of people related to beauty.
Our time is changing so fast that the word "beauty" has, to some extent, fallen from the temple. When we were reading in the 1980s, there was a famous book called "The Course of Beauty", and aesthetics was a manifestation at that time. But today, when we see beautiful things in everyday life, we often say that this thing is great, this thing is beautiful, and we will use another word. We describe contemporary art as "touching" and "strong" instead of "beauty." We generally don't dare to use the word "beauty", as if it belongs to another era. So at this time, it takes a lot of courage for Leng Glacier to use such a word as the name of the top publication in his mind, and this courage itself represents a gesture that it is calling for something, even a debate.
If this is the case, why is this happening, and what should we do in the face of this situation? Because I have been studying the West for a long time, I must face the concept of beauty. The concept of "beauty" is not very clear on the Chinese side, but the West does have a clear concept from the perspective of art history and the history of philosophy, at different stages. For example, from Plato onwards, the relationship between beauty and ideas, in the Middle Ages, once God's vision was adopted, it was natural that there was the famous "truth, goodness, and beauty", and you had to be connected, and from God's point of view, what was beautiful had to be true, it had to be good. When it came to the Romantic Hugo, Hugo's most famous preface to Cromwell mentioned why there was such a work as "Notre Dame de Paris"? "Notre Dame de Paris" has a very beautiful person Esmiranda, a very ugly person bell tower freak. Hugo proposed that the writer is the expressor, that we can face reality, and if there is ugliness in reality, I must express it.
The most important step in the philosophical definition of beauty is Kant, whose definition of beauty pulls beauty to a universal, rather than an individual, concept. Kant has two major contributions to beauty, the first of which is universal, and only in this case can we discuss it with each other, otherwise we cannot discuss it from our own personal point of view. Second, Kant proposed the concept of the "sublime," or "grandiose." Beginning with Kant, the beauty of nature can be compared with, or even higher than, the beauty of art. Then to the nineteenth-century Baudelaire, which was an artificial paradise, again emphasizing that I could art for art's sake. By the twentieth century, the concept of "beauty" had been greatly undermined, whether it was the practice of various contemporary art, such as Duchamp's urinal, which was obviously an impact and subversion of the so-called traditional classical beauty. Therefore, the change in the concept of "beauty" in the West is traceable.
The French painter Dibby Fei said that beauty is uncapable, and once you say the word, "beauty" disappears. But at the same time, even today, we still have a judgment standard in our minds that "this thing is beautiful" and "this thing is ugly", which is human nature. So it's very interesting, no matter what kind of ideas you have, whether it is historical change, as if there is still a fundamental thing in people, he is still willing to distinguish between beauty and ugliness.
So at least doing the magazine "Aesthetic Beauty", this bold move, can still stimulate us to think about these questions. Because, many problems we think are no longer problems, but in fact it is still a problem.
Individuals in today's society are highly self-recognized, and there is a subversion of the concept of art by the masses
Zhang Lixian: Next, let's talk about beauty and life, because life is personally related to everyone. Teacher Dong Qiang first talked about your views.
Dong Qiang: This is indeed a very important topic today.
In the past, art and life were separated, and there was a famous saying - "Art comes from life and is higher than life". In the past, art was like a temple, at least when young students were studying, I believe that Xu Lei and Leng Glacier had masters in mind when they were young. This kind of master, you look up to him, you hope to reach him one day. Now, it seems that this sense of looking up is getting less and less, which is a major feature of today's society - the high degree of self-recognition of individuals, especially in the Internet era, WeChat era, individuals can expand infinitely in their own scope, including the metaverse, I think it is related to these things. After this power is greater, to some extent, art in the original sense must be deconstructed.
The original model between the master and the apprentice, you see the Renaissance, there is a bunch of apprentices under Leonardo da Vinci, raphael below the whole studio, the Frenchman Ingres went to Italy to learn... Including Xu Lei and Leng Glacier, they have been influenced by many masters in the West, and they are now the masters in their minds. But many young people don't necessarily think that way. So everyone is painting their own, taking selfies, thinking that the snowflakes they have photographed look better than others, in fact, when you compare, it is almost the same. When it snows in Beijing, everyone is shooting snow, and some people have really better compositions, but does the person with good composition rise to art? Nor did it rise to this step.
So we now have a kind of popular subversion of the concept of art, that's for sure. But whether this thing is good or bad, we don't judge. Because art is, to some extent, its purpose is ultimately to liberate the human spirit, and if you as an individual directly achieve it, it is also a good thing, and perhaps the ultimate goal of art will be successful.
Since I have lived in Paris for a long time, France has a worldwide recognition of the blend between art and life. We now imagine the streets of Paris, you may use the word "romantic", but we can change it to "beauty", feel very beautiful, a small place can reflect the love of life. How art fits into life, they have always done a good job. Back in China, I had a particularly deep impression at that time, Lin Yutang wrote "The Art of Living" when he was in the United States, and he said not to underestimate the Chinese nation. Around the same year, a Frenchman also wrote a book called The Art of Living. At least in China and France, we have something in common, and art can be good at drawing things from life.
I did the "Road to Tang Poetry" activity a while ago, and my co-author is a Nobel Prize winner, who feels that Tang poetry is full of small things of life, and everything that may not be able to enter poetry in the West has entered. So on the one hand, we have the high art of scholars, and at the same time, whether it is Du Fu or even Li Bai's poems, there are still many things in life. Including painting, there are spiritual paintings, pure landscape paintings, but there are also many everyday things. "Qingming on the River Map" is full of the breath of life. So blending the two together is also a manifestation of civilization, a high degree of civilization, which can look very high and beyond life, but in fact it is connected with life. And to some extent, if art can't be brought into life, this art may not last long.
We learned the word "aesthetics" when we were reading, why did we create this word? It means to feel. At that time, it was found that it was impossible to express something purely by intelligence and other things, so to invent a discipline had something to do with our feelings. Feelings are something that exists all the time in our daily lives. I'm feeling the light right now, and even I'm feeling the expression of everyone underneath, everyone's every move, which is a very everyday thing, and big artists are often able to find something in everyday things that you can't think of. Therefore, there is such a relationship between art and life itself, at least in the French civilization, the Chinese civilization, we have such a tradition.
A real person naturally and powerfully expresses such beauty, without a minefield
Zhang Lixian: Teacher Xu Lei, I would like to ask you, not from the dimension of the artist, from the dimension of life, how to feel the beauty from some details of life?
Xu Lei: I think everyone's life should be real. Why? For example, if I go to a certain person's house, I look at his home, look at the paintings or supplies hanging on his wall, and I can probably know what kind of person this is. So all the material things in your life can actually represent your soul, and this can't lie, because you spend every day and night with these things, and these are very real. So the artist can't believe the speech, Andy Warhol said "embrace the new life", but said that the things in his family did not exceed those of the nineteenth century, and the artist sometimes made things mysterious.
The part of material life that can be achieved is not measured by nobility. Your real life is what you really want, and maybe the mess in your home is also the state you want. If you have a very tasteful home, the home is surrounded by something that looks pleasing to the eye, such as that cup with emotional memories, it looks very beautiful, this cup is a cup made by a farmer where I bought it with my lover, I think it is very beautiful. Everyone feels differently about the part of life.
Zhang Lixian: I don't want a positive answer, you give me a negative answer, tell the young people here, can you set up some minefields, such as this is best not to do, or what do you think is not beautiful?
Xu Lei: I think that the difference between social recognition and the aesthetic aspects of some people's own quality of life is too big, which I can't stand. For example, this person you think he is very tasteful, for example, some writers I recognize, I went to his house to see the decoration, he also knows the Western fireplace, he installed a very small fireplace there, like a cat's nest, this difference comes. I think it's a pity that maybe the size is a little better.
Zhang Lixian: Are there any details in someone's life that make you completely block him?
Xu Lei: I will respect everyone's different life, this is their choice. Sometimes it might be better if that were the case, for example, if the table wasn't quite right here, it might be better to adjust it. For example, there is a bonsai there that I look very uncomfortable, and if I don't fix it properly, I will take the scissors and say that I will repair it well. I wouldn't say if it was right or wrong, I would say it might look a little better.
Zhang Lixian: I would also like to ask Teacher Leng Glacier about this question, how did the details of beauty form in your life?
Cold Glacier: The simplest, the most concise is the best, I don't have any mannerisms.
Zhang Lixian: In an artist's view, what details in life can be done better and more beautifully?
Cold Glacier: Still the plain context is the best, I don't have any requirements for life.
Zhang Lixian: If you admire a young man, what in life will make you sincerely recognize him?
Cold Glacier: From his overall breath, taste... We usually rarely communicate with strangers, so we can only judge at first glance, say more if we like, and less words we don't like.
Zhang Lixian: What kind of "stuff" makes you not want to talk to him?
Cold Glacier: I wouldn't have given myself the opportunity to see this "thing."
Zhang Lixian: You old comrades also speak so cunningly (laughs).
Cold Glacier: I don't usually know so many people, I hardly go out, I work from home.
Zhang Lixian: Then you still know people like Xu Lei and Dong Qiang. Then your life is still very closed.
Cold Glaciers: Where to Close? Isn't there still an old six?
Zhang Lixian: Yes, I am the same as you.
Cold Glacier: In fact, a person's sincerity, a person's nature, at a glance to grasp it.
Zhang Lixian: If you weren't an artist, what would be the relationship between your life and beauty? Or how do you describe your daily life?
Cold Glacier: I didn't think about my life as an artist. Then I am buying vegetables to cook with the children... I've done this before, and I can still do it. I forgot what you were trying to ask (laughs).
Zhang Lixian: Because I want to get some more practical information, how can a young person do a better job when arranging the details of his life? Or there are some minefields to avoid.
Cold Glacier: His usual spiritual vitality, genuine pursuit... If he is a real person, he should have a natural and powerful expression, such a beautiful, no minefield.
Over the years, people have not felt so strongly about beauty
Zhang Lixian: Next, we still have to go back to the reason for coming here, that is, this set of books, its planners are Leng Glacier Teacher and Wang Jiaming, the final execution is Leng Glacier Teacher, the planner is you two? Below, please ask teacher Wang Jiaming to come to the stage to talk to you.
Wang Jiaming: I listen to it very interestingly below, it seems to equate art with beauty, art is beauty, beauty is related to life, basically this is such a logic. Because the phrase "to talk about beauty is to talk about our lives" is what I said. You can see that there are many beautiful things in ordinary life, and what I just said about seeing people is actually an old lady in the countryside, and she also has beautiful things. Of course, very tall people also have beautiful things. I think beauty in the ordinary is very important. All three of you, including the sixth, have an understanding of beauty, such as why "Reading Library" is so designed, there is a set of standards. There are standards for everyone.
I saw the first side with Xu Lei at Chen Danqing's home as early as possible, about twenty years, and now I don't know him at all, he was quite thin at that time, Dong Qiang was also relatively thin and tall, do you say that it was the beauty of that moment or the beauty of now? It's all the same, there was beauty then, there's beauty now. Beauty is everywhere in life, depending on whether you can find it or not. Unfortunately, I think that people now, especially people over the years, especially young people, don't feel so strongly about beauty.
Zhang Lixian: You are too one-sided, right?
Wang Jiaming: Because the world is too prosperous. To understand and see beauty, I think we must be calm and calm, and we must understand. If you look at the flowers, that kind of beauty is very superficial.
Zhang Lixian: Xu Lei and Dong Qiang at that time may not be different from young people now.
Wang Jiaming: There is a difference. Just now Xu Tired said that there were few publications at that time, they just looked at those things. Cold Glacier found a painter's good thing to copy, as if to get how much joy, now there is? Not now.
Zhang Lixian: Do you think that in the current era of flooding, you can't find something more concrete?
Wang Jiaming: I think it is affected. To see the beauty, or to calm down.
Xu Lei: My feelings are the same. I feel like they're wearing trendy clothes and I'm not going to wear them anymore, and I feel a little sorry in my heart. But I see that the clothes they wear have their own aesthetic system, and I am quite envious. So there are a lot of things I can't do, and I feel a little different. But there's one thing you can't stand, and that's plastic surgery. I think anyone has a beautiful place, and you let people who appreciate your beauty see it.
Zhang Lixian: Then you yourself naturally grew into a very beautiful white hair, and another person wants to dye it like this, and you can't stand it?
Xu Lei: I'm talking about plastic surgery, unnatural things are not good. Other dressing, living habits, I have silently to appreciate, to see.
Beauty used to be the preserve of art, but now it certainly isn't
Zhang Lixian: Are you studying young people?
Xu Lei: I don't learn, at what age I have to say my own words at which age. If a lady wears a miniskirt in her fifties or sixties, it is inappropriate, she has another kind of beauty. The things on young people, I often look at them with envy.
Zhang Lixian: If there is a Xu Lei standing now, and there is a younger Xu Lei standing next to him twenty years ago, these people here seem to be more willing to choose the current Xu Lei.
Dong Qiang: I went on to say from Teacher Wang and Xu Lei that some people do feel that young people may be too quick if they don't calm down, such as their feelings about beauty, but on the whole, the level of civilization in our country is still constantly improving. I was a particularly high-level translator at one point when I was in Paris, when there was a delegation in a particularly great place in France, that kind of palace-level place, spitting, and suddenly found out that it was a carpet, and then rubbed it twice with my feet. At this time, you have a special feeling of humiliation, and as a Chinese feel that you have no place to look at yourself. But that's when it happened naturally. This phenomenon is much less now. But I was particularly impressed at the time.
I was studying a French poet, Henri Michaud, who wrote a particularly great book, Ecuador, when he was young. He was a particularly weak poet, a Caucasian man of Europe, who fantasized about the wilderness of the earth. He saw an Indian woman spitting on the ground in Ecuador, and he felt beautiful, and he thought the act was particularly beautiful and healthy. So sometimes the same behavior, or to see the occasion.
When you say that an act is ugly, you are definitely not judging from a purely aesthetic point of view, you are judging from an ethical point of view, a moral point of view, a sociological point of view, and you think that he should not do it. When you say it's out of place, you're already standing outside the aesthetic standard. Including a lot of online, such as looking for the most beautiful cleaner, when you are looking for the most beautiful cleaner, what are you doing? In fact, you are carrying a very complicated criterion, and you are likely to think that her behavior is more beautiful. So today's beauty is really a very complex concept, and it is really difficult for us to talk about it from an artistic point of view. Beauty used to be the preserve of art, but now it is certainly not. Finishing/Rain Station